Well. That was awesome. What a great few chapters. I am really liking this book, and am so impressed with the writing. A dumb thing to say, but no wonder it's such a classic. Once again I left my homework to the last minute, and had three chapters to try and squeeze in to yesterday. I am determined to learn my lesson this time.Anyway, there a lot of things to talk about! Obviously the events in chapter vii are the pinnacle of things so far, but there were lots of good things in the lead up as well. Maybe it's best to do sub-headings..
The Drunk Girl--
This episode in chapter 4 was another interesting situation that again drew parallels to other things so far, and also revealed more about Raskolnikov's strange state of mind. Once again we saw the pattern of an innocent girl treated badly, and defiled, and the threat of the predatory male character. What I found fascinating about this was Raskolnikov's continually shifting attitude to the situation. He swings between desperately wanting to protect the girl, and throwing his hands up in a 'not my problem' kind of way, saying of the 'predator' character 'let him have his fun'.
The Dream--
Was this a dream or an actual childhood memory? I wasn't too sure. It was pretty tough going though, the story of the horse being beaten to death. The author is pretty unflinching in the way he describes violence, that's for sure. Again we saw the same kinds of patterns. There was the horse, who was female and an innocent victim. There were the predatory drunken, incompetent males. And finishing the triangle there was even the hard older woman character (who was watching and laughing). And Raskolnikov is again sort of a helpless bystander in the situation. Very interesting.
The Murders--
Boy o boy, those last couple of chapters were awesome. So full of suspense, and so perfectly described. Very anxious reading. I don't really know what to say about it all though. It was pretty distressing how detailed it all was. The suspense was amazing when he was trying to make his escape. What a page-turner! It was so tragic that he also murdered the sister. If he could reason away the old woman's murder, that was one thing, but the second murder was completely different, don't you think?
Something that particularly interested me in the lead up to the murder was discovering how his reasoning was working, because up to that point we didn't really know why he would go to such an extreme as to commit murder. Very interesting also was how he saw it as almost inevitable, like some sort of fate and predestination that was leading him to this outcome, and it was beyond his control.Well, I have just rambled on too much, sorry. What were your thoughts? Did you 'enjoy' it as much as me? What were your thoughts on these three different incidents, and how do you think they are linked? Do you think his fatalistic attitude was just a way of justifying himself? Do you think he even feels the need to justify himself?
For Next week-- Read Part Two, i-iv
19 comments:
really enjoyed these last chapters, not only for the dramatic element, but also because Ras’ character and motives became much more developed. I also felt the real dilemma of the book reared its head here – i.e. the morality of murder when the victim is not entirely innocent and the outcome is arguably good.
The Drunk Girl
I read his final resignation as an acknowledgement of the hopelessness of the situation, that she is just destined to get into trouble and there isn’t anything he can do about it.
The Dream and the Murders
It was interesting to see how one foreshadowed the other. In the dream however, the murderers are drunk and brutal, whereas Ras is calculated (though he loses his head a bit at the end). The brutality of both is what hit me, especially Liz’s death. The reality of actually taking a life and the physicality of it was clear in the text, which made it all the more brutal.
I don’t think I have anything to add other than what you said, Ben, about the link between all three incidents. I found the destiny/fatalism aspect of the murders interesting. I think Ras actually believes he was “fated” to commit these murders, as if he is locked into a path he cannot escape from.
Soph-- Yeah, I agree it was good to finally get to understand the motives involved. With the drunk girl incident, maybe it's also a case of him reliquishing control, and saying well why am I bothering.. So maybe less an acknowlegement of his helplessness as a decision to be helpless? A decision to not do what is right? i don't know.
Ali-- This is your captain speaking. I am already dead on the deck and am speaking to you from the great beyond.
Yeah I think I agree with R's motives for abandoning the drunk girl-- stifling compassion in order to prepare himself for what was to come.
Maybe an interesting aspect of the dream is that he is not in control of his feelings, and so couldn't stifle his compassion as he did with the drunk girl. So we see the truth of his feelings-- that he does have scruples and is still very much aware of the wrongness of murder, and feels completely for the victim..
There's a bit of a political edge to all of this as well.
The murder of the woman is supposed to be the start of Ras' great political career - with her money he is supposed to do a thousand good deeds - building fountains and what-not. That is, it's the question of whether or not violent revolution is ever justified. A relevant question in Dosty's day, and still relevant today in some parts of the world.
For the UN, in trying to define and condemn terrorism, some African states have vetoed the inclusion of violent revolution in the definition, precisely because it is justified on some grounds...
Somehow, I don't think Dosty would agree.
That's really interesting, Drew. Does the end justify the means? To play the devil's adovcate, what do we then say about the Bilbe, when God uses violence as judgement on a nation, or to establish Israel in the promised land?
The political aspect of all this also makes me think of the ambiguity involved in revolution. Ras thinks he's being really clever and calculated, but the act itself is more complicated than he originally thinks, with things going wrong, unforseen circumstances and rash decisions made - resulting in two murders. Could this be a warning that violent revolution always tends to complicate things more than the clean-cut solution it promises? Just a thought.
Hmmm, yes, never did finish that introduction or do too much of the background reading. Can't help feeling that Dosty would be using overstatement in that political scenario. After all, no-one really had any right to that Lady's money, she didn't have to lend it to anyone and so put herself in that position and people didn't have to go to her to pawn things ... I'd have to study the basis for a few more revolutions to see the parallel (though perhaps there's something in the power she then came to have to ruin people).
I'm not really sure about all that stuff, I hadn't really thought that there was some overall social comment going on. I guess I had just thought it was simply a character study of a guy losing his mind. But I definately get that there are more levels than that one. So in that scenario does the old lady stand for something else? what??
And did Ras really have those grand aspirations, or was he just telling himself that for a bit, to ward the guilt away until he could get 'the job done'?
Just a few brief thoughts...
Ben, I think you're right. It isn't a straight allegory where each character stands for something else. It really is a nasty old lady, a kinda crazy student and a really nutty idea. But I think it's meant to connect or reverberate with other peoples ideas about revolution that were going around at the time.
But at the same time, we really do need to see the way the old lady 'preys' on students and others. The people who come to see her really are desperate. It really is poverty of the most hideous kind, which sort of implicates the present day order of things. It suggest that not even the old lady has a right to the money - there is even the suggestion she prostitutes her half-sister. But an 'outer' revolution isn't the solution - it doesn't solve the turmoil that is in Ras' head. An 'inner' revolution is needed.
Soph, great thought about the problem of evil and judgement. Dosty is really good on this, but I think I'll have to think about it a bit...
Hey, this is probably a dumb question, but remember when Lizaveta was being described, she was said to be constantly pregnant.. So do you suppose she had these babies, or would she have had abortions? Sorry, dumb question, but I was just curious.
I think abortions... remember the comments about 'the cost of cleanness'?
ps-- oh, is that what that was referring to.. That is a very depressing thought.
ps- welcome Andrew!
actually, it's just me... accidentally logged in under a different account!
*Doh* I could have kept it and used my alter ego to argue with myself. Oh the joys of the intertubes.
Well, welcome both of you then.
Regards,
Brent
Oh, I thought that was referring to, ahem, feminine hygiene products that are no longer in widespread use - which were also purported to prevent pregnancy, but I suspect that is a myth (don't ask me to elaborate, but I'd reckon they wouldn't have been the first thing you brought if you had no money). "Cleanliness" is a queer word to associate with an abortion ... but you never know.
Does the old woman really prey on her victims when they seek her out, and not vice versa? But, yes, agree that Dosty was trying to communicate something about revolutions and his contemporary readers understood as much (or, at least, that is one theory among others that I read in the piece of intro I did read).
Anyway, I am steeling myself. I think this book is going to try and make me empathise with Ras, perhaps even like him, I can smell it, and I DON'T LIKE HIM! :)
just wait
I definately think she preyed on her victims. Sure, they came to her of their own volition, but then she bled them dry, with massive interest.
No, that is no valid excuse for her murder of course, but if the question is whether she preyed on the desperate--definately.
Yes, but that is still the nature of pawning - you get next to nothing for what you take in there, if you go to buy it back you'll probably have to pay double. Let's all go and burn down Cash Converters!! But the reason people go there is because pawn shops provide an option when perhaps they don't have any other. And so people went to this old lady because they knew that there they could get money when they needed it - as those guys in the pub said "she's amazing, you can always get money out of her". I'm not saying that justifies the misery it can visit on people through, and it's an ignoble business, to be sure, but it doesn't make me feel more kindly towards smashing people's heads open with an axe.
And I reckon I can guess what is coming - Ras will go and be very kind to those other people and his family, and then I'll be forced to sigh for him and think he was acting out of character and was a desperate man driven to desperate measures when he smashed people's heads in with an axe.
Anyway, am just playing the devil's advocate - I know the book is trying to give us a glimpse into, and understanding of, what motivates people and can make good people become monsters and all that ...
...time for me to lob in...
Thoroughly enjoyed the reading this week - Ras is such a nut-case. In fact, that's something I'm really enjoying about the book - EVERY character is flawed. There seems to be this 'inner war' going on for all of them - and Raskols' is the war we get to view the most. You know you're reading a good book when no character is perfect.
Sad - to see him decide to care so little about the young girl bring preyed upon. Seems he lost that mini-inner-war to the devil on his shoulder (as opposed to the angel on the other side).
The murders - tragic. Hard to read. I love the emphasis on his fear about the blood being on his socks and trousers. Dosty created such good tension leading up to it, I seriously kept wondering if Raskol was even going to make to the house or fall over half-dead and insane! Leaves you feeling particularly tense and dirty when you put the book down and try to go to sleep...
I can't foresee how Raskol could possibly survive the amount of pages left in the book without going through some sort of massive mental break-down, to the point of hospitalisation or death. Will be interesting to see how he pieces days together now he's guilty.
pieces days together.. that is a great point. i have been thinking along those lines too. He obviously is, despite not wanting to be, a man with a conscience. So how do you go about separating yourself from your conscience if you have done something like this? To me, to be honest, I would feel inclined to either repent and confess, or the only other alternative would be to... throw it all in. I couldnt live with it.
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