I just listened to a talk called 'Marriage and Men' by Mark Driscoll. I'd say it was one of the most captivating talks I've heard in ages.It is a very, very hard word to men, and you'll need a strong constitution to make it through. But it's really worth it, and I got a lot out of it. Definitely one I'll listen to again and again.
He says that men are prone towards two extremes- chauvinism (too much 'man') or cowardice (not enough 'man'). He goes absolutely drill-sargeant at some points, completely berating men. The general theme is, 'you're not cute, you're an idiot'. It is really worth listening to.
Women, it'll be helpful for you as well (why wouldn't you want to see men get their butts kicked?) There's one for women as well, that I'll listen to next.
9 comments:
I listened to these talks ages ago. Just listened to the woman one again. I like most of what he has to say - particularly the stuff about not making a big issue of small things. 'Just love her and give her what she wants!' Great advice, so long as things are going well. Gets trickier working out what are the big decisions and the small decisions if the overall marriage is struggling. Can be that little things grate because they are symptomatic of bigger issues.
He is very un-chauvanised in many of his ideas. One-ness is the aim. Not a power thing.
I like that this isn't as hard line as the guy talk. But also wish it was.
[doesn't make much sense. may follow it up with a blog post sometime. would be interested to hear your thoughts on the woman talk.]
Driscoll yells ALOT here... but I've long suspected men have hearing problems so I understand why he does it :)
Really liked the talk, thanks for the recommendation.
AY
Simone, I'm giving this, and the womens talk some thought. Will reply soon.
True, AY, men need to be yelled at, by men.
Leaving aside the content of the talk, I'm really unhappy about the shouting and the name-calling. My husband spent ten years in the military, and left with a strong aversion to men shouting at each other - it's basically bullying and I think there's no place in the church for it. But then I should probably admit that I find Mark Driscoll pretty unbearable generally... so much anger, so much the expert!
I find the expert thing hard to take too. But then I went and wrote my own do and don't lists for wives, so I can't talk.
[I switch off when the yelling starts]
Joanna, I understand what you're saying. I have been thinking about how to reply, and I'll do my best, though it may be a bit rambly.
I am not really a macho kind of guy. I'm not very confrontational. i am extremely turned off by loud, obnoxious, bullying blokes.
Yet for some reason, I loved this talk, and it felt right and good to me. I thought it was all so spot on, that for me there was no issue of 'you are a putting yourself up there as expert'. What he was saying was right, so that didn't matter to me.
I think there is a need to look beyond the manner. What is behind the yelling and berrating? He is furious with men not treating women the way they ought to be- respected, honoured, valued, cherished. Surely this is a fantastic thing, and if men respond to it, well that to me justifies the harsh means. I can see how being in the military would create a strong aversion to that means, but at the same time, the content and intention is radically different.
From my personal point of view, I would er toward the 'cowardice' end of the scale, and this talk really felt like a needed slap, and a very welcome wake up call. I felt berrated, but I also felt really inspired and empowered to step up more as a husband and father. I'm sure there are thousands of blokes for whom it has had the same effect.
And I do think the anger is justified, and that anger, and yelling if need be, can have a place in the church. Not to sound boring and trite, but imagine Jesus walking in to that temple with a whip, knocking tables over. He loved those people, but He was ANGRY.
I'm not saying Driscoll= Jesus, but I'm just saying sometimes the offence is big enough to warrant such treatment.
One final thought, I'd say that maybe the lack of young men in our churches has some sort of correllation to the lack of this kind of teaching on the whole. As un-PC as it seems, I think deep inside a man is the desire to be treated as strong enough to cope with this and be spurred on to be more.
Hey, Ben - thanks for such a thoughtful response to my comment! I really appreciate you taking the time to spell out your own response and I really am glad that you found MD's talk helpful.
In some ways I want to defend the expression of anger in church - I think a lot of us are very passive-aggressive and a bit more open anger would be a good thing. And of course you are right about Jesus... but hey, he was Jesus! But I still find any man in leadership shouting and name-calling a really poor model - I think it sets up a model that lots of people copy and justify 'because MD does it'. And in the case of MD, the fact that it goes along with this unwillingness (in my, admittedly limited experience of his talks) to ever display weakness or talk about his own failings... I am really uncomfortable with the dynamic of powerful, successful and aggressive leader vs. congregation that it sets up. For my friends (male and female) with abusive fathers, this is way too close to home. Still, I will chew seriously on what you've said, it may be one of the many things I'm wrong on!
Finally got a chance to listen to this; kept reminding me of an old boyfriend. Thank God I married a Godly man, not the old bf.
I had a few issues with the idea of "men are THE providers" as we've had many years where I have had to be the breadwinner or a largely equal co-contributor.
I expect that MD was really having a go at those males who abrogate responsibility rather than those whose financial positions necessitate their wife's working but sometimes just budgeting isn't enough. What's a couple to do when the man's full-time income can't sustainably pay the rent because the town they're in is so ridiculously expensive? Not tithe? Not eat?
I think I'll recuperate with all the other things I have to do today before I listen to the sermon aimed at women.
Must say I was pleasantly surprised by the talk aimed at women. After listening to the men's talk I was expecting to be told that I had to stay at home, have lots of children and have no career but it wasn't quite that way.
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