So! What did you think of the first three chapters? I got bad reminiscences of high school when I was up late last night finishing my 'homework'. I bet you were all good, and finished your reading days ago. Teacher's pets.Well I don't want to write some great big essay about my thoughts, I want to start off a discussion and hear your thoughts. But I'll briefly outline what I thought so far.
I was quite surprised at how readable it is, and how modern it sounds. I'm not sure how much of that is down to it being a modern translation. I really like the writing, though, and like how unflinchingly the character's negative traits, and the general poverty are described. Some other thoughts--
Characters--
The characters seem pretty well rounded already, and I am intrigued to find out more about them. Raskolnikov is hard to classify at the moment. To me, he seems on one hand quite confident and self-assured, but on the other hand quite easily thrown by things, and quickly losing the plot. Marmeladov's story seemed to overshadow things for a while. What a loser! Oh man, he depressed me. It was interesting though how he said he drank not to escape his pain, but to feel it more.
So far it seems like the male characters are pretty rotten, and the females are either innocent victims, or pretty hard and severe.
Parallels--
I noticed some parallels between characters and situations. The story of Sonya, Marmeladov's daughter, being pushed into prostitution by her stepmother, as a consequence of Marmeladov's ineptness reminded me of Raskolnikov's sister being treated badly by her bosses' wife, as a consequence of her bosses' crapness. In both these situations an innocent girl is treated badly by a harsh woman, as a result of bad actions by a man.
E pointed out a better parallel also-- that Raskolnikov's sister is marrying a man she doesn't love, in order to provide for her family, as Sonya had prostituted herself to provide for her family.
So what did you think? Like it? Hate it? What stood out? What do you think about Raskolnikov? Good bits? Interesting quotes?
For Next Week-- Read Part One, iv-vii
18 comments:
One of the things that stands out to me so far is how much we DON'T know mr Raskol yet. It's like we know much more about all the characters he meets than we do about him - and all we've gotten so far is a glimpse into his reactions to each of them, and some of his 'out-loud-mumblings- to himself as he stumbles between them.
Of course - this is really effective writing! It makes you hang out to find out more about him, and wonder where he'll end up.
What we have seem of him makes me think he's a bit of a whacko - his tendency to sit inside for a couple of days not eating; his avoiding social situations and fear of having to speak to anyone; his impulsive decision to enter the bar and skull a beer; his obsession with the 'task' he's set for himself... whacko.
But he's an INTERESTING whacko - and I'm hanging to find out his whacked out future.
Rich stuff.
ps someone will have to tell me how to use italics so I don't yell anymore!
Yeah, I agree, Pete. We seem to know more about him by his reactions and interactions to different characters than by any other way.. I found that his reactions took me by surprise-- How excited he was to get the letter, how he left the money for Marmeladov's family, the type of conversations he had with people etc.
I agree with Peter about R's character - we don't know much about him, but what we do know is intriguing, and there are a fair few hints about the crime/s he is about to commit, which makes you want to keep reading.
In regards to the parallel stories, I felt that too. One thing that struck me was how ironic it was that R's family situation mirrored M's. I got the sense that he looked down on M a fair bit as a no-hoper, but the ironic thing was that he was just as bad, using his sister and mother's money in order to fund his own lifestyle and pursuits (which isn't study). It's just that his exploitation wasn't as obvious.
The class of both men - one as a university student, the other a government clerk (though were they considered of a higher class back then? I don't know) - was interesting. They are supposed to be educated and act/behave a certain way, yet both are pretty dishonorable at this point in the story.
To use italics:
within angular brackets, these: < and >, put an i to start the italics.
When you want to stop them, put a /i within the brackets.
it's easy!
Should look like this when you type (but imagine angular brackets):
{i}it's easy!{/i}
both are pretty dishonorable
But Sonya is the interesting one: the prostitute, who has not been able to be educated for lack of money and her father's drink habit, is honourable.
Interesting point about the irony, Soph, and about Ras. basically doing the same as Marm. I didn't quite get why R. spent so much time with M, even going back to his house, when he looked down on him... did he do it to make himself feel better?
Yes, I think it's fairly obvious that R is going to be slowly swallowed by the evil within ... Sounds a warning against letting yourself brood on wicked ideas, lest they overtake you. (Who said that line about gazing too long into the abyss etc?) I agree with the rest of you - we can easily become/already be the thing we despise, without even realising it (I mean, what is the real difference between M and R?).
R seems strangely self-aware of what's happening to him though - like when he rambles on about how he's rambling on because he never does anything etc. Curious that he seems powerless to actually act against himself.
I thought the letter from his Mother was a little exasperating. I got the impression that his mother knew full well what was going on too, but had decided to participate regardless.
Hmm.. maybe the difference between R and M is that R's loathing is towards the world around him, whereas M's is towards himself?? Could be wrong.
I didn't find his mother likable, from the letter. She seems to see her son as a saint, and everything else can come 2nd to his happiness.
The way he reacted to getting her letter was like 'yay, I'm going to have my ego coaxed, the world DOES revolve around me. Mummy will assure me of this.'
Ben that's a great question - why'd he leave the money?
It could be - and I hope it is - a sign of what we'll see played out over the book: the war of 'good versus evil' that'll play out in Raskol's mind/will. He wants to do something evil, but part of him still realises he couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't do it... but then he wants to... but then he doesn't... but then...
Ali's right - he's staring at the abyss too long - and we get to see what happens, while hearing all the thoughts going on inside his brain.
I don't think I agree that Raz is as irresponsible as Marmy. I think Dostoyevsky wants to show us the extreme hardship of many of Russia's lower classes. Raz, I think, and despite his disturbed psyche, has a real and honest pity for them. Though he himself suffers, it's not to that degree.
Nor, I think, even does his taking money from his mother and sister need to be seen as sponging. He is the male of the family, and his mother's son. He embodies their hopes. Why would they not support him?
As for Raz and what he does... 'thinking' etc. I think Raz thinks that by thinking he will actually be able to improve the lot of Marmaladov etc. Ie. Noble sentiments. But wait till you see where they go...
Yes, I sort of agree with you that I sort of disagree with me :). But Marmy started out well too - taking pity on the plight of the woman he married intially and attempting to help her, or so it seems, and I think he genuinely cares about the disgrace of his daughter, even though he does nothing to prevent it. Will be interesting to see what R does to prevent what he sees as his sister's ruin.
But yes, I don't think R taking money from his mother and sister is the same as M taking it from his wife and daughter - those are different responsibilities.
Anyway, it's been so long, I can hardly remember chapters 1-3 :)! But there's an interesting scene ahead that shows more of that war Peter speaks of :) (that's not a spoiler!).
It's not so much the sponging that makes me think R is irresponsible, but his inaction. He doesn't really do anything that makes me think he is using the money they gave him responsibly - well, not yet anyway. And why is he pawning stuff if they gave him money? His over thinking is irritating to me, like Hamlet.
Re. the letter - I wonder if we are meant to read between the lines here.
And with M, my overwhelming reaction to him is pity, as he seems to have the desire to provide for his family, yet lacks the willpower to kick his addiction to the drink and make that happen. I think that is what R feels for him too - a sense of pity (hence leaving the money behind).
Friedrich Nietzsche: If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
I've had a lot of the same impressions as others. I also was pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to read and how much I am eager to find out how this story is going to go down. (I guess that's why this is a classic.)
M - hated him. I understand that his addiction has a hold of his life but I still don't like his attitude or the condition he is forcing his family to live in. Then again I wasn't too fond of his portrayal of his wife. But it seems that women in that time and place in society needed to do what they could to survive.
We still don't have the whole picture on Rodia, as his dear, sweet mother likes to call him. I didn't care much for her either from what we learn in her letter to R. She seems very manipulative.
I agree that he seems to be suffering some kind of mental illness. And I also think he needs to take more responsibility in caring for his mother and sister but feels trapped for some reason. (not sure why yet) He does seem to have some kind of conscience and empathy, since he left the money for M's family.
I think there is a battle of good and evil going on within R. We'll see which one wins out. It seems that M has given over to evil.
I'm not sure I've added any insights here but appreciate reading other's thoughts so far.
Drew, in some ways to me Raz seems even more irresponsible than Marmy. M seems so pathetically helpless and hopeless, whereas I get the impression R could be responsible if he tried, and stopped being so self absorbed.
Ali, that is an awesome quote, but pretty chilling.
It's interesting that Soph, you feel mostly pity for M, whereas Lu, you hated him. I think I felt a mixture. On one hand he is helpless, but on the other hand you just want to beat some sense in to the bloke. Nothing was more pathetic than when he was crawling on his hands and knees with his wife pulling him by the hair, and he's saying 'I like it'. Urrghh.
I also hated M as a character, but I can see that he is a reflection of Raz, and tests Raz' perception of things.
I think I like this quote best:
Hurrah for Sonia! What a mine they've dug there! And they're making the most of it! Yes, they are making the most of it! They've wept over it and grown used to it. Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!"
He sank into thought.
"And what if I am wrong," he cried suddenly after a moment's thought. "What if man is not really a scoundrel, man in general, I mean, the whole race of mankind—then all the rest is prejudice, simply artificial terrors and there are no barriers and it's all as it should be."
It seems the author is developing in Raz an ethic by which to live by, by which the rest of the story will play out. The above quote gives us a sense of his schizophrenic philosophy. He both detests the fact that his class is forced to exploit others in order to survive, and then he can see no other option, and reasons it away.
His response to his mother's letter is similarly a little disturbing, the way he seems to revel in the opportunities presented to him by someone else's fortune.
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