..I don't know if you can know who or what that is. You might label it God or Jesus, but to me it's a spiritual connection that I feel with this force.
I have had this conversation a lot of times, and it's one that infuriates me. If somebody criticised my wife to my face, it might be a similar feeling to the one which rises in me when I hear that term, 'higher force' bandied around.
Let's say you have two friends. One is kind of helpless and needy, the sort of person that always seems to need propping up. They call you five times a week, they unload all their problems. You love them, but they feel like a burden a lot of the time.
The other friend is kind of the opposite- never in need, never burdening other people. But he is super-generous and humble. He is always giving to other people, and putting other people's needs before his own. You know this from personal experience, because you have been in need a lot of times, and this friend has just rushed to your side at the drop of a hat, every time. He's never once made you feel like a burden though.
Imagine this second friend meets your first friend, and just showers them with love and generosity. They had nowhere to stay so he took them in, gave them his bed while he slept on the floor. He found them work, cooked them meals, sat up late and talked and listened with them. He was there day in, day out, seemingly unceasingly loving and kind and compassionate.
You meet up with the first friend a while later. They are back on their feet, living pretty comfortably. You say to them how good they look, how happy they seem, what a difference you can see in them. You ask what has brought about all this change.
They say there was someone or something helping them out, they don't know who, and they don't really care or need to know who. They just know they are happy now, and they are grateful to be in such a good place. Grateful to that unknown benefactor. They don't think too much about all this, they just want to get on with living their life.
This is as ridiculous as calling God 'some higher force.'
He has a name, and you should know it.
Huldra Forsvant (Theodor Kittelsen)
Huldra Forsvant (Theodor Kittelsen)
19 comments:
Benno. Devil's advocate here.
In my opinion, It seems that, for the common man, a regular person who may or may not have am upbringing in the ways of any particular faith, there is a vast difference betweenh the scenario you have described and the one these "higher force" people subscribe to.
You cannot assume that all who are exposed to your God can be as willing to embrace such a force without a tangible interraction. That is not being fair to these people.
The scenario you create two tangible entities that interract not only on an emotional level but also on a physical plane.
Anyone who does njot recognise THAT is a selfish soul.
You might be a liitle off track in that respect?
Unless you have a specific example?
I have met so many people who have NEVER been introduced to the concept of Jesus as YOU know it. Is it fair for you then , to judge them?
I hear what your saying, and I think it's essentially the 'remote Amazonian tribe' arguement- ie, if someone never hears about Jesus, how can they be judged for not accepting Him.
I think that line of thinking is a bit of a red herring as far as this post goes though, because the people I'm refering to (as can be seen in the first line of the post) are people who have been exposed to plenty of opportunities to 'meet Jesus'.
God gives us a massive book outlining everything we need to know about Him, and He sends His Son to die for ME, in order that there can be relationship there.
And I then say that I can't really know Him or anything much about Him?
And as far as the 'physical plane' goes, God made everything that is physical. He came to earth in physical, sweaty, real, human form to rescue us. there's not much more that can be done on a 'physical plane' than that.
you missed the point I was trying to make mate.
In your post, you are comparing a person who has hands on assistance from another when in times of need to a person who does not wanrt to identify this 'higher force' specifically the way you want them to when they can't 'put their finger on it'.
The physical plane IS created by God. No arguments there. But, a physical INTERRACTION is another thing altogether. This may be the deciding factor in identifying this elusive 'higher force' identity to some people.
The amazon tribe argument has no place here. I am making reference to people who through their families and schooling, have had no passionate introduction to Jesus. You have. it is not fair to chastise those whop haven't.
It reminds me of people who complain about their weight and fitness who are pointed in the right direction. There is onle one way to change that but still......It gets ignored.
The complaining doesn't stop though.
Your post.
".I don't know if you can know who or what that is. You might label it God or Jesus, but to me it's a spiritual connection that I feel with this force"
The first line of your post portrays a definite lack of knowledge but how do these people know they NEED to meet Jesus? An opportunity is one thing. But I will again make reference to people who have weight isuues. They know what needs to be done. it seems that every person will come to the necessary conclusion when the time is right for them, no?
Should they still be judged by us?
you must have also loved my question ending in no, no?
No!!
I guess we could go on forever about who's missing who's point.
Firstly, I know from all our discussions over the years that you take issue with me judging. The fact is, that everyone judges, and that you taking issue with my judging is essentially you judging my judging! It's right to make judgements.
it seems that every person will come to the necessary conclusion when the time is right for them
Which suggests there's really no urgency or consequence. We are all basically top blokes who God will accept, because He's really swell.
Die this arvo in an accident, and I face Jesus, I can just say, 'well the time wasn't quite right for me, Higher Being, but you are forgiving, and I once helped an old lady across the road- so shall we call it even?'.
If there's no urgency or threat, what on earth was the point in God giving his son to be killed to save us? If you believe he did this, is it not worth trying to understand why?
The fact is, to follow your line of politically correct thinking, humankind are left in a pretty bad predicament. I'm allowed to be a Christian, as long as I don't judge anyone else or say anything else is wrong. Faith is personal, so I have to keep it to myself.
Yet, the other side of your arguement is that everyone deserves a break until Jesus is put right in front of them, and they've been exposed to every little thing about God. Until God performs a miracle in your loungeroom, he has no claim on your life.
So should I be saying Jesus is the only way, or shouldn't I? You can't have both.
My problem with the whole "I believe in God/a Higher Power" thing is that basically it's an out - I "believe" in God therefore I'm "ok" with God and he's "ok" with me. I don't need to do anything else about it.
I see 2 problems with this:
1. If you "believe" in the Christian God as your 'higher force' then he is owed more than just an acknowledgment of existence and the occasional church attendance every 5 Christmases. This token belief is no real faith. It's words without action. Even the devil acknowledges God's existence. Doesn't mean God likes him! (People I know and love fall into this category so I'm not trying to dis them. It's just frustrating and sad for me.)
2. If it's not the Christian God that you're talking about, then who ARE you talking about?? Wouldn't you want to know who's pulling the puppet strings, who's bringing the help and comfort you ask for, or the blessings you want so badly? Or are you just going to make up your own little god who likes the things YOU likes, always looks out for YOU and will give YOU a pat on the back when it's all over. If that's the case then what's so powerful about your 'higher power'? Isn't everyone else's little 'higher force' just as powerful, thereby making YOUR 'higher force' a rather ineffectual one-of-many-forces that battle it out to bring about good in each of their little believer's lives? This really doesn't seem like something worth believing in, rather it seems like a foolish panacea to make people feel a little bit better. Again, some family and friends are like this. I love them, but it's so hard not be annoyed by them not thinking this thing through to it's logical conclusion.
(earlier post deleted because I didn't check for spelling. Silly me!)
This really doesn't seem like something worth believing in, rather it seems like a foolish panacea to make people feel a little bit better.
Spot on, Bonnie.
No Benno, Its NOT right to judge. You nor I have that priviledge.
neither of us would like to be scrutinised and as far as my judging your judging(?), i am talking to you and not making a broad, sweeping and if I may be so bold, a little condascending swipe at the 'higher force' brigade. (in this instance)
You are 100 percent right about the urgency or consequence regarding our relationship with God. This can be applied to many things though.
If you were unfortunately killed on the way home, you would be happy with your position in God's eyes.
What about everything else?
Can you say that your game is spot on across the board?
Are there still things you are procarstinating about or waiting for the right time to get to?
I only raise these questions because you are you and you have to accept people will percieve whats important in their lives because its their life.
You should say Jesus is the only way just as Old mate will tell you that Allah is only way.
respecting other people and their way of life is paramount.
You are not Jesus. Jesus will judge. God will judge. Not you. Therefore be proud to be part of his team but don't smash the other teams if they lagging behind or don't have a good coach like you.
Does that make sense?
I am not questioning your position. I applaud and respect your faith and love you for it.
Just the false sense of superiority i see and hear creeping into a lot of 'Christian's' way of conducting themselves is a little concerning.
That tendency to begrudge has almost become a necessary component
of being a christian.
Just as Bonnie said about the occassional church attendance as no sign off faith.
Just because you are strong with yours (faith) doesn't give you the right to look down on those whose isn't.
You may say that you are not being that way. but brother, you are.
Your tone. Your use of words is very indicative of how you feel. It makes you angry as you have said. but why are you bitching about it?
Is THAT the Christian way?
'it seems that every person will come to the necessary conclusion when the time is right for them'
This was not only regarding one's faith but everything that we do.
For example: You got round to sorting out your speech when you felt the time was right.
I for one, think that its awesome you got there regardless of when or how.
Should someone who did it years ago chastise you for deciding that your time would come?
Its not a race but yes, the finishing line will be a great place to be. Don't bark at the slow pokes and call em losers. Hop in behind and help along.
They'll get there that little bit quicker....
Nice parable, Ben.
Perhaps part of the problem is the ambiguity of 'believe in'. Sometimes we say 'believe in' to mean 'believe in the existence of': "I don't believe in fairies." Sometimes it means 'put confidence in': "I believe in you."
In the Bible, the question of the existence of gods is not really raised. The question is, "Which god do you believe [=put confidence] in?" The world is full of gods, so which one do you follow?
We think we've chased the gods away, leaving us to believe in ourselves, or in an undemanding 'higher force', which sounds a little like code for ourselves + luck.
Stuart, you would be surprised (actually, you probably wouldn't!) how many people I know who think that exact way....
Pedro- Okay mate, you make some good points. Firstly, I apologise for coming across as arrogant or condescending. I should speak in love. Ok, your points--
Its NOT right to judge. You nor I have that priviledge.
neither of us would like to be scrutinised
I think it's really important to make a distinction between judging, and making judgement calls.
I think as a Christian I am not to judge non-Christians (Romans 5:12 "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside.") You are right about that.
But Christians ARE to make judgement calls. It's wrong not to. If you see something wrong, an injustice, and you keep your mouth zipped so as not to offend, well there is really no love in that. If I hear about a woman being raped, I should make a judgement call on that. It is not a 'privaledge', but a responsibility. I should say that is wrong.
This passage is interesting-
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment.."
I am not judging these people, condemning them to hell. I'm making a judgement saying they have got it wrong, and are heading in a dangerous direction.
I need to ask you though- You say it's wrong to judge, but where does your logic come from? Is it from the Bible or just a gut feeling as to what's right and wrong? I think we need to constantly defer to what has God has said in the Bible, rather than just carving out our own religion of what 'seems' right to us.
'it seems that every person will come to the necessary conclusion when the time is right for them'
This was not only regarding one's faith but everything that we do.
For example: You got round to sorting out your speech when you felt the time was right.
I for one, think that its awesome you got there regardless of when or how.
Should someone who did it years ago chastise you for deciding that your time would come?
Pete, I think you are missing the urgency. Our standing with God just is not comparable to other areas of our life, whether someone loses weight, or gets speech therapy for a stutter. This issues are earthly, and while they profoundly affect our quality of life, in the end our time on earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity.
The stakes are so high, that is why the gospel needs to be told. Not to prove I'm right, but frankly to try and stop the people I love from spending eternity in hell, seperated from God.
I don't like arguements or confrontations, especially with close friends like you. So you must see it's not just fror the sake of arguing or seeming superior that I discuss this with you.
I'm not chastising people for being wrong, I'm frustrated because I want them to be saved.
Its not a race but yes, the finishing line will be a great place to be. Don't bark at the slow pokes and call em losers. Hop in behind and help along.
They'll get there that little bit quicker....
While this is a nice way of looking at it, I just don't see that it fits in with what God has said about it, or what Jesus has told us about judgment. It is only through Jesus that we will get to any finish line, so it's imperitave to make Jesus known.
Stuart- That is a good distinction you make about the word belive. You are right there is a big difference between believing something exists, and putting your trust in it.
Good points there too brethra.
I wish it wasn't so limiting to have thesed iscussions on the bloody blog!!
So much to say and talk about. i love it. Guess thats why we are dope bro'z huh?
I will say one thing though.
You asked about where my logic comes from. I think we all have a basic knowledge of right and wrong, (well i would like to think so anyway!!). We just base our behaviour around this line to varying degrees.
As far as judging goes, well, I will admit, I go with my gut. i have no intention of 'carving' out my own religion. I will leave that the catholics.
I was at Mary mackillops place on sunday and there was a nice quote that stuck with me and pretty much sums up how I feel about this matter.
'We must teach more by example than by word'
Now I'm no saint. You know that. But my father is my example and i hope to portary the same strength and character that i see in him, as a father.
I don't feel worthy to Judge some one else, just as i don't credit anyone's judgement of me.
My stance is between me and my God. Full stop. Thats how i feel about it.
I am becoming more and more disillusioned by the affairs of contemporary religion. Regardless of the faith.
Christians. Muslims, even bloody atheiists are all talk.
No one is leading by example, truly.
So, I mean no disrespect to you or the Bible when I say that opening it to a page and reciting some scripture almost falls on deaf ears.
i look closely at people's actions and make an assessment of their beliefs that way. i keep it to myself because its their gig. Not mine.
The actions don't match the words.
Ever.
I guess this just goes to show then, that there's only a limited use in these discussions- if I say something and back it up with the text I'm basing it on, and that as you say, falls on deaf ears, then maybe there's not much point. we've had the same discussion many, many times now.
I'll just try my best to live as an example, and any time you want to talk about stuff, feel free.
One last thing I'll end on. I don't blame you for being dissillusioned from what you see of religion, and of Christians. I know I'm a poor example in many respects, and sadly that will always be the case.
So, I'd say don't look at Christians, look at Christ. He's the one and only person who led by example, beginning to end.
You're right, Pedro. On the question of tangibility, God's people should make tangible the difference Jesus makes: the way we use our money, the way we handle conflict, the way we do marriage and parenting, our willingness to tip in restaurants, the way we treat marginalized people (elderly people, mentally ill people, single fathers, etc.)…
This is most powerful when it is our common life — not just how we act as individuals, but how we live as a community. It's easy to dismiss one person's actions as eccentric; it's more difficult to dismiss a whole group of people.
In Deuteronomy 4:14f, Moses reminds the Israelites that they shouldn't make any carved image of their God. Instead, "the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day" (v 20). The language of being taken out of the furnace is the language of creating images: God doesn't want Israel to make any images, because he's already made his own: he forged them in the furnace of Egypt. And so Israel, in their common life together, are to be the image of their God — generous givers, committed to holiness, and so on.
So too Christians, who are being formed in the image of Jesus (e.g. Colossians 3:1–10).
If we're not 'imaging Jesus' successfully, there might be (at least) three reasons:
1. We're just not living like his people;
2. We're not doing it visibly: that is, no one else is invited to come in and share our common life;
3. Others choose to ignore it.
(Having said that, I know some people who have dismissed Jesus and Christians largely based on information gleaned from newspapers and popular culture — they haven't actually engaged with the Bible or spent much time in Christian community. That's just prejudice.)
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